Renewable energy advocates have never trusted President Donald Trump, given the president’s moves to back away from the Clean Power Plan and consistent campaign promises to revive the American coal industry.

But not everyone in the renewable energy industry is panicking just yet.

Abby Hopper, the president and CEO of the Solar Energy Industries Association, began her tenure leading the national solar trade association just three days before Trump was sworn into office, and told the Nevada Independent that she’s sleeping easy despite the last nine months of tough talk.

She said that the only tangible action the administration has taken affecting the trade organization over the last nine months was a “grid study” commissioned by the Department of Energy described by Hopper as “fairly positive.”

“That’s really the only piece of real work that’s happened in these nine months, which is fine,” she said. “I’m not criticizing that, but I’m saying other than rhetoric, in terms of actions, that’s the action we have to look at.”

Hopper took over the top job at SEIA with a wealth of experience in the energy sector — she spent a little more than two years heading the federal government’s Bureau of Ocean Energy Management, leading an agency with nearly 600 employees and a $175 million annual budget. She also spent more than six years as both an energy advisor to former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley and as director of the state’s energy administration.

She said her main concern with the federal government is over a trade case involving two U.S. solar manufacturers who in April filed a petition with the International Trade Coalition —  a federal body that oversees alleged trade violations — asking them to take action and potentially institute tariffs against foreign companies importing cheaper solar panel parts.

Hopper and SEIA have warned that implementing tariffs — which needs presidential approval — could potentially lead to “unprecedented demand destruction” and kneecap the growing industry.

The solar industry also has its eyes on Nevada — Hopper said state lawmakers’ decision to reinstate favorable reimbursement rates for rooftop solar customers coupled with opportunities available to the industry through a 2018 ballot question would end NV Energy’s monopoly on electric service and open up the state to retail competition.

“Solar’s at a price point right now where it can compete,” she said. “It’ll go head to head with all of those technologies — assuming this trade relief doesn’t get imposed on us — we’ll go head-to-head, and we’ll win.”

The Nevada Independent sat down with Hopper on the final day of SEIA’s Solar Power International conference in Las Vegas to discuss how the Trump administration is addressing solar, what other states can learn from Nevada’s battles over rooftop solar and what an energy deregulation ballot question could mean for the industry.

The following interview has been lightly edited for clarity and length.

Q: What have you done in the energy sector, and what have you done with SEIA since you came into this role nine months ago?

A: I’ve been in the energy sector for almost 10 years. Right after my son was born, so that should be easy, I think how old he is. I worked as a deputy general counsel for the regulatory commission, so for the regulatory side. I worked the policy for a governor. I ran an energy administration. And then, I ran a federal agency.

So, lots of different kind of viewpoints, right, and ways to think about decisions that have got to be made, and lots of different technologies too. So, oil and gas, wind, solar, electric distribution utilities, regular utilities, so it’s been a great opportunity. And I’ve seen the whole spectrum. These last nine months have been exciting and exhausting, challenging, but I’ve learned a ton more about solar, and more specifically about the companies that are involved in this space, kind of what’s important to them, what do they care about, what do they need in order to grow their businesses. So, that’s what I’m really focused on.

Q: As solar becomes more widespread, what should utilities and others do to deal with the fact that solar is an intermittent source of energy?

A: Well, I think the intermittent resource issue is actually a bit of a red herring. I think our electricity system was built in the day of large power plants, so energy just flowed one way. Obviously, with the increase in these different kinds of technologies,  solar being one, wind obviously being one, energy efficiency, demand response, kind of all of those different kinds, we need a more flexible grid. We need a grid that can respond and offer two-way opportunities back and forth.

Every grid operator I’ve ever spoken to has said they can manage various resources that all have different attributes, all bring different attributes, so I think the challenge is making sure that you have the right kind of grid operation in place. I’m not denying that it takes thought and planning, but it’s not a problem. It’s just takes thought and planning. And, making sure that you have the right market structures in place, so that there’s benefits, every energy source has its own attributes, and those should all be valued and compensated in the appropriate way.

Q: One of the big issues in Nevada has been over what the value of rooftop solar is and what it provides to the grid. What is the industry doing to try and make this case to energy regulators to the public that solar is valuable?

A: So, the value of solar is not a question unique to Nevada. It’s a question that’s being asked in regulatory commissions across the country. And, I think most of the research that I’m aware of —  not research done by me or my organization — but research done by commissions, and sort of other analytical organizations shows that there’s actually more (benefit), solar brings more value than less. It’s a net positive for the grid just in terms of its ability to provide energy at specific locations and at specific nodes, and its reliability and those sorts of things.

I think having objective information and objective analysis about what the value of solar is is the most important question. But, I think all the research to date has shown that it is a positive for our grid.

Q: Is there a public awareness campaign in terms of making people aware of the value of solar?

A: We’re focused a lot, we do a lot of communications around that. We talk a fair amount about consumers’ right to choose where they want their energy to come from. We talk about the fact that solar is a good citizen of the grid. So, we do sort of public messaging around that, and obviously in commissions, a lot of messaging around that.

Q: What’s going to happen to renewable energy under a Donald J. Trump presidency? What is SEIA doing to communicate with a pro-coal administration and what’s going on with federal tax credits for solar projects?

A: So, on the investment tax credit,which is the tax credit that’s beneficial to the solar industry,  Congress reached an agreement at the end of 2015 that extended the tax credit through 2022 with a ramp down over the five years, so that they, it ramps down, and then eventually it stays; there’s a 10 percent tail for commercial projects that goes on.

And so the way we describe it, we’ve already been “tax reformed”, right? So we have (a) clear pathway. So, we’ve had lots of conversations with our champions in the Senate and in the House, Senator (Dean) Heller being one of them. And they have assured us that a deal was cut, agree that there’s a predictable ramp down for the investment tax credit, and that we will honor that deal. So, I think on the tax credit, we remain cautiously optimistic.

In terms of the other (question), the president and I started within four days of each other, so it’s easy to look at the tenure, kind of the actions that have come out of the Trump administration. Really, the most significant one I think is the grid study that Secretary (Rick) Perry asked to be done. And, we’ve had an opportunity to weigh in on that. We met with their chief of staff and talked about a lot of their research, similar to that question you asked a minute ago about the intermittency of the grid, the intermittency of the resource.

And so we had an opportunity to talk to them about the study that came out, identified that it really was the falling prices of natural gas that are changing the economics of generation, and making it less competitive for coal and nuclear. And so that’s really kind of the only piece of real work that’s happened in these nine months which is fine. I’m not criticizing that, but I’m saying other than rhetoric, in terms of actions, that’s the action we have to look at. And we thought it was a fairly positive report, so that was good.

We have met with Secretary Perry. My board went to see him when they were in Washington, and he was incredibly interested, incredibly engaged, lots of questions about the technology. He understood that Texas was number nine in the nation for solar installations last year, and said that he wanted to be number one. So, he seemed really appreciative of the role that solar can play. And just yesterday, the Department of Energy announced, I think it was $82 million, was that right, $82 million in grants to solar technologies, and announced that they had met their goal of bringing down the cost of solar three years early, and in fact, set a new goal to bring down the utility scale cost of solar even further. So, kind of all the data points I have that are actions have actually been supportive of solar.

Q: So, you’re not losing sleep over Rick Perry’s tenure or the Donald Trump presidency despite all the rhetoric?

A: No, no, I’m certainly not losing sleep. I work too hard. I sleep really well.

There is a pending action at the International Trade Commission that does cause me and my industry great anxiety. It is an action by two foreign owned companies that are asking for global tariffs on all solar panels coming into the United States that would have the impact of potentially doubling the price of those products and causing 88,000 jobs to lost across the country next year. So there’s a whole bunch of phases, but if we get to sort of down the path, the President will be the ultimate decision maker about what if any tariffs might be imposed on solar panels, and that causes me anxiety.

Q: Has the administration weighed in on that at all?

A: No, not yet. So, we’re in the initial phase, which is when the International Trade Commission has to determine whether there’s been injury. So, there were briefs filed. There was a hearing. There were more briefs filed. And, a decision on that is due next Friday, the 22nd.

Q: What impact would the tariffs have on the rooftop solar industry?

A: So, the easiest way to describe is that if the tariffs are granted, and the way that they’ve been requested, it would double the price of solar panels. So, if you’re going to double the price of something, or at least one of the most important components of something, it is going to affect how many people are going to want to buy it. So in the utility sector, we’re seeing about three different segments of the markets, so the residential, right, commercial and industrial, so Walmart puts it on their roof, or the utility scale, right, because the big power plants usually in the middle of the desert out here. And so all of those would be impacted, the prices would change. They would become maybe 30 percent more expensive.

As a consumer, if something is 30 percent more expensive, you’re not going to save as much money on your electricity bill, you might not purchase it. If you’re a corporate customer, and something becomes 30% more expensive, you might look at a different technology instead to meet your sustainability goals, or you might just decide it doesn’t make economic sense.

And certainly at the utility scale, which is about the vast majority of the growth in the market is happening, we are competing head-to-head with wind and with natural gas. So, if all of a sudden in a head-to-head competition, our costs go up by 30 percent, we’re not going to win. So, it’ll have a big impact. We’re seeing almost 50 percent of the demand will be lost. So, you can understand, it would have a huge impact on our industry.

Q: You mentioned that Senator Heller has been a champion for the solar investment tax credit. Can you expand on what he’s done, and anything else the Nevada delegation has done to support the solar industry?

A: So, we recently gave him a solar champion award to thank him for his support. I wasn’t at SEIA at the end of 2015, but my understanding was then he really was a champion. When you’re wheeling and dealing deals late at night, and have all these different moving parts, he was one of the ones that bird dogged the ITC (investment tax credit) and made sure that it was included in the final package that got to the President’s desk. He has been engaged with us, open to conversations, open to meetings, committed that he’ll continue to work with his colleagues to make sure that the investment tax credit remains in place.

I think we have a new senator (Catherine Cortez Masto), so she wasn’t there at the end of 2015. So, obviously, (ex-Senate Democratic Leader) Harry Reid was incredibly helpful. But she has been. We’ve had conversations with her about solar, but we haven’t had an ask of her just yet.

Q: Nevada lawmakers recently approved a bill reinstating favorable net metering rates for rooftop solar customers. Is the system set up by Nevada something other states can emulate, and what it’s the state’s role in the future of net metering?

A: Well, I mean Nevada’s already played a really important role in the national debate around net metering because I think citizens and regulators and governors saw how upset our citizens got.

Honestly, just sort of the outcry from citizens was obviously hugely impactful on this issue. And so, I think we can talk about every poll that’s done shows overwhelming, like 70 percent, 80 percent, 90 percent support for solar. We can talk about all these things, but you had an example here in Nevada where it was tested, and it turned out to be true, right. People spoke up, and activated around being denied access to solar. So, you’ve already been a leader in terms of identifying activism around solar.

But, this conversation about net metering and kind of the future of net metering is alive and well also all across the country. We at SEIA feel really strongly that net metering is a tool to help grow the solar industry. We think that when you get to certain levels of high penetration that’s the time to start talking about kind of how to have a different approach to net metering. And, I think at the beginning, it’s, at the one for one ratio, it makes perfect sense as I have said that solar brings benefits to the grid. And so, having that one-to-one ratio is appropriate.

But it’s a conversation that we’ll continue to have. So, there’s lots of thinking going on around that. There’s really lots of discussion going on around it. And, I think Nevada has come up with some pretty interesting way to try to solve for that problem.

Q: Are there other things that the state is doing that are good practices or best practices in the eyes of yourself and SEIA?

A: Nevada has the fourth largest solar market in the United States, and so obviously you have policies that help incent that. So, clear direction about net metering, and clear pathway, I think on the utility scale, solar deployed here having efficient permanent processes is an important thing, I think the work that’s happening with co-locating Tesla’s gigafactory with some other kinds of manufacturing is a great example of how to be efficient around that. Another thing as we think about this casino that we’re in, right, that chose to sort of disengage from the utility, and have more control over their own energy use, and energy supply — I think that’s an example to lots of different companies around the country around how to get more choice than how their energy is supplied.

Q: With energy deregulation on the ballot in 2018, what role with the solar industry play in a potentially competitive retail electric market?

A: If the citizens of the great state of Nevada think that deregulation is an appropriate policy then we would be supportive. I think solar can participate in regulated and deregulated states, and so we don’t necessarily have a policy opinion about which one we prefer, but I think having an open market in that way would, again, if the folks here in Nevada want that, could provide unique opportunities, especially as it’s being opened.

We have lots of deregulated states in the East. I live in one. And we can play in those energy markets, I think understanding kind of how the creation of the market, and sort of how you create the market rules and the valuation for all the different attributes of those energy supply will be an important part of creating that deregulated state. But, I think there could be lots of opportunity.

Q: Is the solar industry concerned that passage of the energy deregulation ballot question could lead to more fossil fuel use in Nevada? What kind of regulatory steps could policymakers take in setting up an open electronic market to encourage renewable energy use?

A: We are supportive of renewable portfolio standards (RPS). And, we were supportive of the RPS bill here that passed this year. We would be supportive of that in the future. But that’s the thing — solar’s at a price point right now where it can compete. It’ll go head to head with all of those technologies — assuming this trade relief doesn’t get imposed on us — we’ll go ahead head-to-head, and we’ll win. We’ll win a big bulk of that supply, and so I think it is not as much of a concern.

That being said, I think that the RPS provides certainty, and it sort of reflects the will of the people of Nevada. I think all people should have a choice in where their energy comes from. And so, if that choice comes additionally through the legislators that says we want to sort of set a minimum of how much clean energy we’re going to have in our state, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Q: Are there any other issues you want to bring up that we didn’t mention?

A: Well, I think one of the pieces that was in your bill this year was around consumer protection. Right, that’s really important to us at SEIA, and really important to consumers to make sure that they are having a good experience with their rooftop solar purchases. So, we’ve done a lot of work around normalizing, no, not normalizing, around creating disclosure forms and clarity around what’s a power purchase agreement, what’s the financing term, what’s the leasing arrangement, so that consumers are fully informed, and make kind of whatever decision is best for them. And so, some of that, some of that sort of protocol was included in your bill, and I think that was important.